BitTorrent: Making Money Remains a MysteryOddly, a crappy content store isn't the key to vast fortunes... 06:35PM Tuesday Aug 26 2008 by Karl Bodetags: business · contentAt some point, BitTorrent creator Bram Cohen grew tired of geek adoration for his ingenious networking creation, and decided he actually wanted to make money. So far that hasn't gone well -- largely because his company's initial plan involved the launch of an underwhelming DRM and adware-laden official store, the migration of BitTorrent from open to closed source, making friends with the increasingly hated RIAA and MPAA, and conducting literally thousands of media interviews with CEO Ashwin Navin. Earlier this month the company laid off their marketing staff, and today announced the hiring of the company's very first chief financial officer. Someday, someone will write an insightful BitTorrent book focused on how a great idea isn't always a money maker and a smart technologist isn't always the best businessman, but until then we'll likely have to watch BitTorrent stumble around in a quest for profitability.
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Jerm
join:2000-04-10
Richland, WA | Hmm... 1. Invent cool pirate tech
2. Go legit
3. Profit? FAIL. | |
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CoxCable4
Temp banned from BBR more then anyone
join:2002-10-02
PwnZone
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| Re: Hmm... seems like theres dozens of separately developed free clients, and dozens of separately developed free trackers...
what else is there to make money on? unless they start offering tracker hosting services, or offer a bangup client that you can use on your tivo/dvr or something there is no way they can make money. anything else would be providing content, for which there is a vast illegal and growing legal market they would have to compete with. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| One Failure Doesn't Condemn A Technology Just because Cohen's store didn't work out doesn't mean that other companies cannot use the process to save on their own costs.
I don't have specific examples, but I do know that Bit Torrent has made it much easier for me to download Linux distros and other free software. It probably saves those companies money on bandwidth.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
 ·Verizon FIOS
edit:
August 27th, @09:30AM
| Re: One Failure Doesn't Condemn A Technology said by pnh102  :It probably saves those companies money on bandwidth. Why should I be interested in saving a company money and manufacturing costs if they continue to charge full price for the movie? Their costs are of no direct concern to me. If they are going to charge me less because I'm not getting a physical product or in exchange for me using some of MY bandwidth, then we might have a winner.
For instance, from the official Bittorrent store you can download the movie Shooter for 14.99. You can get the same movie from Amazon for 9.99 and it's a physical product that has actual manufacturing costs. Even if you have the "Gotta have it now" feeling, you can get it at your local Best Buy for the same price. | |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
| Re: One Failure Doesn't Condemn A Technology said by cdru :Why should I be interested in saving a company money and manufacturing costs if they continue to charge full price for the movie? Their costs are of no direct concern to me. If they are going to charge me less because I'm not getting a physical product or in exchange for me using some of MY bandwidth, then we might have a winner. And here, you perfectly illustrate the problem with Mr. Cohen's business model.
All I am saying is that for other legitimate applications, Bit Torrent as a technology can help, not hurt, the bottom line.
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"At the moment of conception." | |
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Transmaster
Don't Blame Me I Voted For Bill and Opus
join:2001-06-20
Cheyenne, WY | Har-de-har-har Dot-Bomb part two. Way too late Bram the cat is already out of the bag. 
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Send a prayer to Allah, eat Beans. | |
| | Ulmo
join:2005-09-22
San Jose, CA
·Comcast
 ·SONIC.NET
| Ads? Indexing is the key. Ads are counter to that.
Any successful long-play (over 20 minutes) audiovideo system in the Internet has to eschew ads when actually trying to find your video. If the user cannot get to the video, they'll go to another site where they can. Ads, by their nature, require obstructing you doing what you're doing, and the concept of that implementation is usually as poorly implemented, such that indexes are designed to be poor rather than good.
Without a good index, BT and similar filetype fronts just will not survive.
DRM or not, you have to be able to use the service, and if you can't find what you want to watch, you can't use it. | |
| Taget
join:2004-07-29
| I don't get what this is about... Bittorrent is simply a protocol. A method of downloading something. That's it. You want to make money. You sell something and use a distribute method of releasing software necessary for what you are selling.
Or perhaps you release free trailers, demos, or even working versions that either advertise or promote something else.
Asking how you make money with bittorent is like asking how you make money with ftp or http. If the open protocol has utility for what you are trying to promote.. use it.. if not.. skip it.
As far as how you make money with a client? Considering the protocol is open you're only making modest money at best and that is assuming you have a damn good client. | |
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dnoyeB
Ferrous Phallus
join:2000-10-09
Southfield, MI
| Re: I don't get what this is about... He could patent the protocol and charge tracker hosts. protocol can be open to client/servers but not to trackers.
I think he was scared of tracker control though because of the legal issues with becoming a 'host' of sorts.
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dnoyeB
"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard. " Ecclesiastes 9:16
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cornelius785_nli
@verizon.net
| Re: I don't get what this is about... it's a little late to patent the bittorrent protocol don't you think? once something is in the public domain, it is pretty damn hard to get a patent that isn't laughable and collect money from people that want the right you use the patent. also trying to force trackers to pay up is ridiculous. | |
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p2p insider
@comcast.net
| I was talking with a exec from Akamai just yesterday who is worried about Bittorent becoming a serious p2p CDN competitor with their DNA client and he told Akamai is going to launch their own CDN p2p client soon , so expect the space to hot up soon also Abode might expand the p2p capability of Flash 10 to to be multi point and multi source so its a space to look at . | |
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rchandra
Stargate S G-1 And Atlantis Fan
Premium
join:2000-11-09
14225-2105
clubs:
| Sveasoft all over again...almost The only difference in this one is Sveasoft didn't take Linky firmware really from the start, they just decided to enhance already GPLed code. The FSF declares what they're doing completely within the GPL, but they have a lot of really bad street cred. So who wins? Not a lot of people win in that one.
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English is a difficult enough language to interpret correctly when its rules are followed, let alone when a writer chooses not to follow those rules.
Jeopardy! replies REALLY suck! | |
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dvd536
as Mr. Pink as they come
Premium
join:2001-04-27
Phoenix, AZ | What they don't get Is we DON'T WANT drm or low bitrate encodes. no wonder legit sites fail. | |
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koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| Here's a thought... This is quite possibly the #1 question which goes through my head every time something new is invented:
Why exactly does said technology need to "make money"? Why does there have to be commercial gain from said technology?
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Making life hard for others since 1977.
I speak for myself and not my employer/affiliates of my employer. | |
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TK Junk Mail
Go ahead, make my day
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Margate City, NJ
clubs:
·Comcast
| Re: Here's a thought... said by koitsu :This is quite possibly the #1 question which goes through my head every time something new is invented: Why exactly does said technology need to "make money"? Why does there have to be commercial gain from said technology? Because MOST people won't put in the amount of effort required to invent something unless they get PAID for all the work they put in.
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page
Ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya punk? | |
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ChrisXP
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
Premium
join:2002-12-13
USA
| Re: Here's a thought... said by TK Junk Mail :Because MOST people won't put in the amount of effort required to invent something unless they get PAID for all the work they put in. Which explains why opensource software, by and large, is crappy. I'm just waiting for 7zip to go commercial, as it's one of the most popular freeware (and bug free) offerings at SourceForge (which in itself winds up to be a way to launch a commercial program).
Don't blame them, as folks have to make a living -- and who doesn't dream of being their own boss?
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Zionism is a crime
»www.jewsagainstzionism.com »www.christianzionism.org | |
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koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
| Re: Here's a thought... said by ChrisXP :and who doesn't dream of being their own boss? Ironically, me! I have no interest in being a manager, whether that involve managing finances, people, or a company as a whole. I consider myself a grunt -- you hire me, I apply grease and do the manual labour. I simply don't want the responsibility or moral conflicts involved in being a boss of anything.
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ChrisXP
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
Premium
join:2002-12-13
USA
| Re: Here's a thought... said by koitsu :Ironically, me! I have no interest in being a manager, whether that involve managing finances, people, or a company as a whole. Ah, but that's where the perks are -- with taking the risks.
Those with dreams, and the ambition to make them come true, will seek to be their own boss, not work under the thumb of another. For creative control, for fame, for profit whatever that motivates them to be more than just another spoke in the wheel.
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Zionism is a crime
»www.jewsagainstzionism.com »www.christianzionism.org | |
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a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Corona, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
edit:
August 27th, @10:23PM
| Deviating from the topic a bit:
I'm hoping that you'll put a sarcasm tag on the post on opensource...
How's opensource crappy? Sure, it's got stuff to improve, but I wouldn't be so quick to label large parts of OSS 'crappy'.
And if you don't like opensource, don't whine and b***h about it, improve it. That's the beauty of it all, if you think there's stuff to be improved, just grab the source and create your own fork of the project. | |
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koitsu
Premium
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
edit:
August 28th, @12:09AM
| Re: Here's a thought... said by a333 :Deviating from the topic a bit: I'm hoping that you'll put a sarcasm tag on the post on opensource... How's opensource crappy? Sure, it's got stuff to improve, but I wouldn't be so quick to label large parts of OSS 'crappy'. And if you don't like opensource, don't whine and b***h about it, improve it. That's the beauty of it all, if you think there's stuff to be improved, just grab the source and create your own fork of the project. ...which loops back around to TK Junk Mail 's comment about how most people want to be paid for the work they do. It's a completely circular argument.
Regarding open-source, as someone who's been using it (and writing it) for a good 15 years, the biggest issue I have is with the "shut up or send patches" and "it's free software, you have no right to complain" attitude many OSS authors spout off as an immediate rebuttal. It's narcissistic, and downright rude.
Do you know how many users of open-source OSes or programs **do not** know how to code (and those who can very likely have no idea how to do so properly)? Authors *expecting* users to know how to program is a completely unrealistic viewpoint. People use microwave ovens, automobiles, DVD players, alarm clocks, and light bulbs -- but most of them do not know how they work, how to repair them, or how to engineer one. They're tools -- they were invented to (ideally) make our lives easier.
You see, I was raised to believe in taking responsibility for mistakes I make and things I create/devise -- so the (very few) publicly distributed programs I've written I take responsibility for. I do not expect users of my software to send me patches or fix my bugs (for they are my responsibility) -- but I do expect them to send me bug reports and feature requests. The longer OSS authors continue to defend the above attitudes, the less likely the "real world" will take OSS seriously.
This is the main reason why it's very difficult to convince people in managerial positions that OSS is a valid competitor to commercial solutions -- people want someone to take responsibility for problems/issues, and OSS often totes the "you have the code, you have the problem, you fix it" viewpoint.
I also don't see how people can make money off of OSS. Red Hat is a great example of such -- they've been struggling to achieve this for a very long time, and I can see why. I have a full-time day job which pays my bills and provides extra money for extracurricular things (hobbies), while doing OSS development as a hobby/on the side.
Bottom line (for me): the fact something is free, IMHO, does not diminish the amount of responsibility that is implied by releasing such into the public realm. I wrote it, I released it, I maintain it. That means they're my bugs, my problem, and my responsibility to fix. | |
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ChrisXP
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
Premium
join:2002-12-13
USA
| Re: Here's a thought... said by koitsu :Bottom line (for me): the fact something is free, IMHO, does not diminish the amount of responsibility that is implied by releasing such into the public realm. I wrote it, I released it, I maintain it. That means they're my bugs, my problem, and my responsibility to fix. Freeware/Open source needs you, and desperately.
More devs that will work with their testers and users = better products.
Wish someone would help out the creator of WinUHA, because that proggy, despite it's age, still can beat 7zip in compressing some files (especially media files). A little competition in the freeware/open source area with file archivers would be nice. As it's the competition that strives the devs to offer better features (like the competition between 7zip and WinRAR).
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Zionism is a crime
»www.jewsagainstzionism.com »www.christianzionism.org | |
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a333
A hot cup of integrals please
join:2007-06-12
Corona, NY
·Verizon Online DSL
| As to the attitude of OSS authors, YMMV. I wouldn't be too quick to label the entire OSS community unfriendly and hostile. Every bunch of apples has a few rotten ones, and OSS devs are no exceptions to the rule. And you still miss my point, I never debated the fact that bug fixes/patches are developer responsibility, I merely pointed out a flaw in the "free is shit" type of logic that's run amok around here. Your point about bug fixes getting the cold shoulder again, loops back to MY point about the inherent nature of OSS: You have source code. Learn how to program. Use your spare time to make OSS more user-friendly. No one's holding a gun over your head preventing you from forking the project. You're free to do whatever you want with GPL'ed code, heck, even sell it.. | |
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ChrisXP
United We Stand, Divided We Fall
Premium
join:2002-12-13
USA
| said by a333 :I'm hoping that you'll put a sarcasm tag on the post on opensource... How's opensource crappy? Sure, it's got stuff to improve, but I wouldn't be so quick to label large parts of OSS 'crappy'. I'm a SourceForge junkie. Like testing out new wares. But by and large what's offered are no better than alpha ware (it crashes; it installs with problems; it's interface is so horrid it needs to be redesigned; functions don't run as intended; memory buffer overruns; it's not compiled efficiently [often again with freeware compilers]...and worse upon worse with opensource, too many fingers in the pie, resulting in spaghetti code etc., etc....).
And like the poster below has said, if you offer some HELPFUL suggestions the dev (or it's team) treats you like you're personally insulting their life's work. Commercial software tends to weather suggestions and complaints better, as they're looking for overall stats (they can best judge problems by the volume of complaints; and get suggestions by the same means. Which all in all is a better way of knowing what features are needed, need to be improved, and most used -- that hasn't translated too well in opensource).
There's some great opensource programs out there, 7zip and Paint.Net are two of them (know 7zip the dev actively communicates with those offering suggestions on the SF board). But they are rare, very rare, despite the promise opensource is suppose to offer.
Those who make programs want to make a living. They can't spend 8hrs a day improving their work for nothing. Simple economics kicks in.
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Zionism is a crime
»www.jewsagainstzionism.com »www.christianzionism.org | |
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chronoss2008
Premium
join:2008-03-29
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| NNPand i was doing this 6 months before bram had even dreamed of bittorrent
you tell me what its like
and how safe it would have been back then compared to BT
Nice lil white paper to work on:
Was good enough that before there was encryption in both Azureus and utorrent
i made sourceforge project and told both utorrent and azureus project people that if they didnt i would add a better encryption layer and do my app
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1st CFO ?? I couldn't find that in link provided